Pushing The Envelope Forums

Classic & Cult Television, Movies and More
It is currently Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:30 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:39 pm 
Offline
Director of the National Post
Director of the National Post
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 7778
Location: In a poker game somewhere.....
My Mood: Neutral
I had mentioned starting this in another thread, but real life got in the way, imagine that.

Many of us have some similarities in the TV we watch, and tend to have similar gripes and dislikes too.

We can make this show specific, or just how TV is trending in general.
(example, whitsbrain generally not liking long story arcs)




I'll start off with a couple of gripes about a show I watch, but yet I see heaps wrong with it, and thats "REVOLUTION".

Some episodes it gets to the point where its just so damn unbelievable its hard to stomach.
Continuous sword fighting (and main characters not getting killed/shot or stabbed).
Another thing that gets my goat on this one, is all the "hundreds??" of times a character could have been killed, for whatever reason and yet he avoids death over and over and over. :x
Bad guys and enemies say to "Kill Miles" or "Kill Monroe" repeatedly, but yet it never gets done, no matter how many chances they seem to get for an easy kill.

That aside, it does hook me into watching it, as it has a few good sci-fi elements to it that I enjoy.
The sad fact is there is so few decent sci-fi shows on currently, that I have to settle for the sci-fi "fix" I can get and this show just happens to be one.
There are a couple decent summer shows coming back, guess we have to wait until then.


I have tons more gripes, but I'll wait for a few others to chime in.




TZ DZ Fan

_________________
-"PLEASE FORGIVE LEO, HE'S NEVER HAD MUCH FAITH IN HUMANITY"-
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:26 am 
Offline
Regional Post Master
Regional Post Master
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:34 am
Posts: 2855
Location: Land of 10,000 Dipsh*ts
My Mood: Mean
I suppose I just need to let go of my hatred of TV shows that go on for years.

I was talking to someone the other day who was shocked that I had never seen "Breaking Bad". I told her I just can't commit to FIVE seasons with the same characters. I mean, how much can happen to characters in five seasons and still be intriguing? I know Vince Gilligan is the driving force behind it and I hear it has an actual ending...my disapproval of looooong story arcs seems misplaced in this case.

There are very few movies that I watch aren't entirely predictable. I'd say most are just okay and that's it and they almost all follow the same storytelling template. Maybe I need to read more.

_________________
Twitter | Letterboxd | Podcast


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:52 pm 
Offline
Director of the National Post
Director of the National Post
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 7778
Location: In a poker game somewhere.....
My Mood: Neutral
whitsbrain wrote:
I suppose I just need to let go of my hatred of TV shows that go on for years.

I was talking to someone the other day who was shocked that I had never seen "Breaking Bad". I told her I just can't commit to FIVE seasons with the same characters. I know Vince Gilligan is the driving force behind it and I hear it has an actual ending...my disapproval of looooong story arcs seems misplaced in this case.


Some snippage.....^


I think its more of a case of just flat out losing interest than it is outright hatred in your case Whit.
You have watched quite a bit of X-Files, and you don't seem to hate it, more so you just seem to lose interest, and trust me thats exactly what I did for X-Files, so don't feel alone.
I doubt I will ever go back and finish it honestly. It started to seem like each episode fit the same pattern in the later seasons, all with very tiny differences.
I know I said something similar before, but you seem to just go for more "one and done" type shows. (and nothing wrong with that)
Think about it, OL, TZ most all classic anthologies are similar. Not to mention movies are a prime example of this..........2 hours and its wrapped up.
Not that we are psycho-analyzing whit in this thread................ :ROTF:

X-Files is yet another show I can bitch about, but thats more of a personal gripe.
I just never got into it as much as all my influences around me led me to believe I would, including the opinions of many here.
Maybe I heard so much hype about it, and was pointed in that direction I may have expected too much.
It was fair at first, but quickly lost its luster to me.



TZ DZ fan

_________________
-"PLEASE FORGIVE LEO, HE'S NEVER HAD MUCH FAITH IN HUMANITY"-
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:10 am 
Offline
Regional Post Master
Regional Post Master
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:34 am
Posts: 2855
Location: Land of 10,000 Dipsh*ts
My Mood: Mean
X-Files...a perfect example of a f**ked up story arc. I like the show, but again, prefer the monster-of-the-week (one and done) episodes.

I've been trying to become a faster reader. Mostly for work and my technical reading but also in a desperate search for something fictional to read that isn't as formulaic or predictable as the movies or TV.

But I'm sure it's just a phase I'm going through.

_________________
Twitter | Letterboxd | Podcast


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:34 am 
Offline
Postal Clerk
Postal Clerk
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:53 pm
Posts: 781
whitsbrain wrote:
I suppose I just need to let go of my hatred of TV shows that go on for years.

I was talking to someone the other day who was shocked that I had never seen "Breaking Bad". I told her I just can't commit to FIVE seasons with the same characters. I mean, how much can happen to characters in five seasons and still be intriguing? I know Vince Gilligan is the driving force behind it and I hear it has an actual ending...my disapproval of looooong story arcs seems misplaced in this case.

There are very few movies that I watch aren't entirely predictable. I'd say most are just okay and that's it and they almost all follow the same storytelling template. Maybe I need to read more.



There should be tongue-in-cheek support groups (assuming there aren't already) for those of us who have never seen something that you "just have to watch," and just don't feel like seeing.
I've never seen "Breaking Bad" either.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:00 pm 
Offline
Director of the National Post
Director of the National Post
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 7778
Location: In a poker game somewhere.....
My Mood: Neutral
All I can say on "Breaking Bad" is this....................

I too like many heard all the rave reviews, and I gave it a chance somewhere in late season 2.
So I went back and caught up online, starting with season 1.

I will admit its not for everyone, but its a damn fine show.
I must also say it starts off a little slow, and because it tends to drag some story lines out for a bit it may not be for whit.

If I could sum it up quickly I would probably say "humble, meek, cancer stricken school teacher slowly evolves into a major drug lord".
This show is certainly not what I typically go for, but it had so many things going for it, it just happened to click on all cylinders.
Quickly became a massive hit and got a huge following.

If I were to guess, I would say whit is about 50/50 to give up on it after a few episodes, but I bet Floozy (if he gives it a chance) would probably get hooked and follow it to the end.

As far as that support group you mentioned, sign me up too. But its for "Heroes". I heard all the same things...........can't miss, must watch etc.
Then somewhere in season 2 the hype died and apparently so did the enthusiasm and show quality.
I might give it a shot before its brought back to life again, (as I mentioned before, its being started again) but I doubt it.



TZ DZ fan

_________________
-"PLEASE FORGIVE LEO, HE'S NEVER HAD MUCH FAITH IN HUMANITY"-
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:46 am 
Offline
Regional Post Master
Regional Post Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:13 pm
Posts: 2261
My Mood: Neutral
Oh man, with you on Heroes, probably should've just ended after Season 1 or 2 and just kept Sylar dead.I'll probably check out the new one, as I tend to give a chance anything that has characters with powers. My only bitching about TV today is that so much of it is horrible. Predictable, formulaic and cookie cutter, most of it is the same or just one bad idea after another and the few good, original ones are cancelled before we get to see an ending. With long story arcs, I tend to wait until a show ends or until it's cancelled before there's an ending, like with the case of Life. Figures Life gets cancelled after two seasons yet Damian Lewis' next show Homeland I'm not into and is a huge hit. Same with Tomorrow People, as that looks like it's probably going to get cancelled.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:49 pm 
Offline
Public Interests Liaison
Public Interests Liaison
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 3147
Location: Deepstar Six
My Mood: So-So
Breaking Bad = worth it

Heroes = not worth it

X-Files = the overwhelming consensus is that it started out good then became predictable and boring...

anything on AMC = watch

anything on CW = skip


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:05 pm 
Offline
Director of the National Post
Director of the National Post
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 7778
Location: In a poker game somewhere.....
My Mood: Neutral
So another major gripe that I have, I have mentioned before and it has to do with the half-assed written so called endings we often get.

The majority of these are essentially done for financial reasons.
For example ----

The Dead Zone- Though I am glad it got a semi-respectable ending, make no mistake about it, this one had one of the "is it ending or is it not" type endings.
It was left open enough for future seasons, but it had just enough closure where long time fans couldn't bitch if it ended.
This was a case where the writer strike came about very near the end, as far as I can remember.
In fact some of the last season was written by newer writers that were brought in.
(I'm working from memory here, but I'm pretty sure thats the case)

There have been countless shows that have done this sort of thing, The Dead Zone was just one, but admittedly it was one of the better of the lot. I liked the ending enough (and so did many faithful fans) that I was content.

I know the main reason this is done (along with the much bitched about short seasons a'la' Walking Dead season 1) is essentially for financial reasons. (that was realistically another issue, as no one knew how well that one would take off, but still)
Think about it, you write an ending that has a fair amount of closure, but also leaves a bit of a ray of hope for new angles and seasons that if it gets approved and is popular enough, the writers can just pick up where it left off and keep on chugging along.
Its smart business I suppose, but this is often done at the expense of the faithful viewer.

A fine example of one that the fans wouldn't "let go" like that was another I have recommended in the past, and thats JERICHO.
There was so much outcry and "mailing of bags of nuts" to the CBS execs, they just couldn't let it go, and had to bring it back for another season. Even then the end was fairly well done, but there was enough of an issue hanging, it could have easily kept on for more seasons.
Yet another one that finished in a fairly similar vein, was one of Lazyboy's favorites"Carnivale".
I personally was content with the ending, but as anyone that watched it knows, it was definitely left with storylines to be explored.
The list goes on.................


I suppose even a "half ass" ending is better than none, but this practice is getting more and more bothersome.
Its almost as if most execs sign up for as much cheap spew as they can get, and its a "see what sticks" approach and they progress from there.

Another show that gets no love here on this board is THE SOPRANOS.
This is actually a whole other issue, as from what I have read, the ending was written fairly wide open on purpose, but this was mostly done for audience interpretation.
Let it be known that although I did watch a few episodes here and there, I never did quite get into it.
For what its worth, I did see a bit of the ending, and I don't know I would have been very happy with it had I been a loyal fan through the whole series.

It seems like the creators didn't want to "pull the trigger" one way or the other, as far as the future of the main character was concerned.
(its almost like, "lets not kill him off and piss off all the fans, AAAAAND lets not let him walk away free also")
Thats actually another issue to gripe about..... but thats for another post later on. :ROTF:



TZ DZ fan

_________________
-"PLEASE FORGIVE LEO, HE'S NEVER HAD MUCH FAITH IN HUMANITY"-
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:23 am 
Offline
Postal Carrier
Postal Carrier
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:54 pm
Posts: 181
Location: Arlington, WA USA Terra; Mind Complex Altair IV
My Mood: Whatever I want it to be
ALL of our gripes boil down to this: Sloppy writing.

It used to be that future top writers learned on the older shows; exampli gratia: Garry Marshal learned on I Love Lucy and eventually had his own shows.

Today a concept is pitched, accepted, then ground out without even THINKING about what they are doing.

Why?

Entertainment has been replaced by "high concept" and the quest for the all-mighty dollar as expressed by ratings.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:30 pm 
Offline
Regional Post Master
Regional Post Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:13 pm
Posts: 2261
My Mood: Neutral
I liked the suggestion I read in a Cracked article where the writer said they should've brought back that unkillable Russian mobster from the Pine Barrens episode and had him show up and shoot at Tony and had one of them die at the end. If you watch the Season 1 finale, it seems like David Chase was trying to do a parallel to that season's ending as well, as he hadn't planned to do more thasn one season, which is why both seasons had the family eating together.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:18 pm 
Offline
Director of the National Post
Director of the National Post
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 7778
Location: In a poker game somewhere.....
My Mood: Neutral
Butch wrote:
ALL of our gripes boil down to this: Sloppy writing.


the quest for the all-mighty dollar as expressed by ratings.


Some snip^^


I do agree that much of it is mediocre writing. (some of it anyway)

But I really think that the money issue which you referred to is a big part of the problem too.
Like we discussed in other threads, this is a "ME, ME, ME society" and unfortunately people are more and more looking out for themselves, and that leads to greed and money issues.
But from a network standpoint, I can understand it, well at least some of it anyway.

I know the times have changed, but I really think there are plenty of talented writers out there.
As Jonny Duffy wrote and alluded to in other threads, I'm sure many are underpaid, and I'm also betting that lends itself to some "sloppy writing" also Butch, as you referred to above.
Lets face it, would you want to give a project your all if you knew you would be vastly underpaid for your work?

It certainly seems to be a combination of things, which unfortunately leads to shortchanging the loyal viewers.


TZ DZ fan

_________________
-"PLEASE FORGIVE LEO, HE'S NEVER HAD MUCH FAITH IN HUMANITY"-
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:38 am 
Offline
Beware! 10,000 Posts, Baby!
Beware! 10,000 Posts, Baby!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:24 am
Posts: 11177
Location: Suburban Georgia!
My Mood: Neutral
:? Another part of the problem is that with almost 1000 channels available just about everything has been done and sequeled to death. I'm beginning to notice that at my age, born during the Eisenhower Administration, that everything I see reminds me of something I've seen before. It's very hard to be novel in an era of multi-layered media and over exploitation of ANYTHING resembling a novel idea or concept. :(

_________________
What we have here is failure to communicate!

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:12 pm 
Offline
Postal Carrier
Postal Carrier

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:47 pm
Posts: 176
Location: Los Angeles
My Mood: Neutral
A response to TZ mentioning me above:

All writers, good, bad and awful are paid the exact same amount due to the Writers Guild for TV. Rare exceptions are made for successful, good writers. Almost all, if not all, producers of TV series are allowed no budget to pay more to a writer. ACTORS get paid more commonly depending on viewer appeal; after all, the public thinks actors make up what they say once in front of the camera!

Many producers/directors write their own scripts which is either good or bad, depending if they can write their way out of a pay toilet in the first place.

Producers often hire "favorite" writers because they don't complain or make waves about total nonsense changes made in their scripts or because they are simply favorites, pals and the like. Sloppy writing is a product most often of these changes or total lack of skill and talent.

Any talented/serious writer follows the advice once given me by a director: "If you are unfortunate enough to land a job writing a script for a terrible TV show, make yours the BEST episode ever of that garbage show and you'll get noticed."

The writer portion of the script is the cheapest. You get what you pay for.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:57 pm 
Offline
Director of the National Post
Director of the National Post
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 7778
Location: In a poker game somewhere.....
My Mood: Neutral
JonnyDuffy wrote:
A response to TZ mentioning me above:

All writers, good, bad and awful are paid the exact same amount due to the Writers Guild for TV. Rare exceptions are made for successful, good writers.



This is a horrific practice, and one that lends itself to lazy efforts, in essentially all walks of life and work.
I know there are exceptions to any rule, but still, think about this.


As a semi-professional poker player, this reminds me of something that was in effect in Atlantic City NJ.
Roughly 8-9 years ago, the New Jersey Casino Control Commission had a law/rule in effect that essentially "all poker dealers split tips on any given shift".
What this meant is, it didn't matter if you were a faster or more proficient dealer than the next, you had to pool your tips with the rest of the dealer staff working that shift, then all tips were divided evenly per person.
So of course the better dealers (definitely including the faster more professional ones) were getting the shaft, as they were basically splitting tips with even novice and extremely slow dealers, and whoever happened to be working on a particular shift.
Suppose a rookie dealer coming in on their first night deals, and puts out 20 hands an hour, and makes mistakes. Compare that to the dealer that puts out 30 hands an hour and makes few mistakes.
This is an extreme example, but it could easily lead to $15-$20 more an hour for the better dealers.
(not to mention the dealers that dealt in the largest games in which each hand could have many thousands of dollars, had to split their tips with people dealing in games where people were battling over $40 pots) Take a wild guess who made the most tips between those dealers. :yack:
I have often seen a good dealer in the big games get a $25 tip, or even a black $100 chip tip for a huge hand, and in the small games the dealer was lucky to make $1 on any given hand.

Anyhow, this is an extreme way to look at it, but its essentially the same thing.
This rule was eventually changed in New Jersey, much to the delight of the faster more proficient dealers.


I would assume writing in general is a hard thing to quantify, especially in a younger struggling writer's body of work.....at least early on.
But either way, (like anything else in life), the better writers should definitely be paid more than the lesser ones.



TZ DZ fan

_________________
-"PLEASE FORGIVE LEO, HE'S NEVER HAD MUCH FAITH IN HUMANITY"-
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:36 pm 
Offline
Regional Post Master
Regional Post Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:13 pm
Posts: 2261
My Mood: Neutral
Of course they should be paid more, like the better dealers should. What you were describing there was pretty much communism.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:47 am 
Offline
Regional Post Master
Regional Post Master
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:34 am
Posts: 2855
Location: Land of 10,000 Dipsh*ts
My Mood: Mean
JonnyDuffy wrote:
All writers, good, bad and awful are paid the exact same amount due to the Writers Guild for TV.

How is that fair!?! Sounds like the Teachers Union.

JonnyDuffy wrote:
...the public thinks actors make up what they say once in front of the camera!

Please, no...Tell me this is just your opinion and not fact :shock:

_________________
Twitter | Letterboxd | Podcast


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:34 pm 
Offline
Director of the National Post
Director of the National Post
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 7778
Location: In a poker game somewhere.....
My Mood: Neutral
whitsbrain wrote:
JonnyDuffy wrote:
All writers, good, bad and awful are paid the exact same amount due to the Writers Guild for TV.

How is that fair!?! Sounds like the Teachers Union.

JonnyDuffy wrote:
...the public thinks actors make up what they say once in front of the camera!

Please, no...Tell me this is just your opinion and not fact :shock:




In reference again to the first point.......... I do think that young writers struggling to learn their craft should have some sort of monetary "protection" in that sense.
Maybe like a sort of "minimum wage" for the typical working masses in a way.

The statement Jonny made basically means all writers are making the same amount, barring a few major or extremely popular people.
The fact is... I just don't agree with "most" workers making the same amount, for reasons I explained above. (and gave an example of poker dealers)
Unfortunately in todays world, this is exactly what happens in so many jobs and workplace environments.


On the second point, I agree that there is still a few people around that tend to think that some actors make up and indeed say (at least alot) of what is the final product seen on shows.
Now I know actors can and sometimes do tinker with lines a little, especially the more trusted and well known actors, but that is a bit different.
The fact that there are at least some people out there that believes some actors "say and do what they want" on camera, leads you to believe that most TV is watched by mindless drones for average viewers.

It hasn't been too long back that I was in a poker game here locally, and heard an argument between two people on this specifically.
One guy just couldn't believe that his favorite actor on his beloved TV show didn't pretty much "say what he wanted" and it was filmed in that fashion. :ROTF:




TZ DZ Fan

_________________
-"PLEASE FORGIVE LEO, HE'S NEVER HAD MUCH FAITH IN HUMANITY"-
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:56 pm 
Offline
Public Interests Liaison
Public Interests Liaison
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 3147
Location: Deepstar Six
My Mood: So-So
Let the writing get worse. It only enhances the original material done before it. Im discovering films and TV from the past thats like pure gold because I know todays stuff doesnt come close.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB 3.0.11 © 2002 ~ 2014 phpBB Group
subTrails recreated by DrMoreau for PtE Forums.